04 XC70 / M1 10w-30 / 3k miles / 8 mo / high iron!

[irv]

Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Originally Posted By: irv
PYB is a pretty inexpensive but quality oil that does a great job cleaning. That is the route I would take if it were my car we were talking about.
https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/blends-conventional-oils/conventional.html


Yeah I'm thinking about trying that next. The SuperTech I have in there now may end up as a "rinse" so to speak. I'll keep an eye on it and report back.


Looking forward to hearing how you make out.

Good luck.

 

[oil_film_movies]

I'm not buying that Pennzoil Yellow PYB conventional is any better at cleaning than SuperTech. Its kind of an often repeated meme without real proof of any kind.
For example, PYB 10w-30 has 2279 ppm calcium, which is very typical. SuperTech 5w30 conventional has 2289 ppm, about the same. So take your pick.

I'd probably just use SuperTech 10w40 this summer, with a half-pint of Gumout MultiSystem TuneUp or Kreen added, and change in 2,000 miles.
After that go to the Valvoline MaxLife Full Syn at 7,500 miles or 6 months intervals. Any oil filter should be fine, changed at each oil change.

 

[JAG]

It is a tough choice to decide how quickly you want to clean it, how dirty you let the oil get before deciding that the filth is too harmful to continue to circulate, and how much to spend on the oil. There is that risk of clogging the oil pickup screen and breaking off big pieces with aggressive cleaning is a concern. My screen was partially clogged on a VW 1.8T that was likely cleaner than your engine. Your screen may already be partly clogged. There is not one best answer on how you should proceed. Insolubles of 0.5 are the most I’d be ok with. The good news is that I’m sure that with whatever approach you choose, you will get the engine much cleaner. It’s just a matter of how fast it happens and how much extra money and time you spend doing it. Sorry for the scatter-brained post...it’s been a hectic week.

 

[VeryNoisyPoet]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I'd probably just use SuperTech 10w40 this summer, with a half-pint of Gumout MultiSystem TuneUp or Kreen added, and change in 2,000 miles.


Why the bump in viscosity? To compensate for the cleaning additive thinning the oil? Because you think the the Supertech won't handle the heat?

This car has an oil to coolant heat exchanger, so the oil can't get too much hotter than the coolant. Turbo is water cooled so heat soak and coking after shutdown isn't as much of a problem. Owners manual suggests 10w-30 or 5w-40 when temps will be over 86F, with 10w-30 synthetic preferred for extreme use or temperatures.

 

[VeryNoisyPoet]

Originally Posted By: JAG
It is a tough choice to decide how quickly you want to clean it, how dirty you let the oil get before deciding that the filth is too harmful to continue to circulate, and how much to spend on the oil. There is that risk of clogging the oil pickup screen and breaking off big pieces with aggressive cleaning is a concern. My screen was partially clogged on a VW 1.8T that was likely cleaner than your engine. Your screen may already be partly clogged. There is not one best answer on how you should proceed. Insolubles of 0.5 are the most I’d be ok with. The good news is that I’m sure that with whatever approach you choose, you will get the engine much cleaner. It’s just a matter of how fast it happens and how much extra money and time you spend doing it. Sorry for the scatter-brained post...it’s been a hectic week.


Thanks for the clarification. For the first few OCI I'll stick with gentler cleaning. Maybe later can get more agressive as more of the junk gets cleared out. I don't want to drop the pan unless I have no choice because it's a structural element of the engine-transmission combo. Not just a stamped steel bowl with some bolts and a gasket.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Originally Posted By: JAG
Wow, that engine has a lot of deposits. Looks like a good candidate to try the Valvoline Premium Blue Restore oil in. If not that, then some Castrol 0W-40, M1 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series.


Part of me wants to try a more aggressive cleaning oil. Part of me doesn't want to knock loose the crud too quickly and clog the oil pickup.

There's also the concern about cost. If standard M1 10w-30 picked up enough crud to turn essentially black in 3k with insolubles starting to get high, what happens to an oil with even more cleaning action? Would running more expensive synthetic oil for longer intervals give similar cleaning to many short runs with cheap conventional as others have suggested? Run short intervals with expensive oil to try cleaning things out faster? My parents are willing to spend some money but I don't think I could sell them on running expensive oil only to drain it after a couple thousand miles because it got super dirty.


PYB is a pretty inexpensive but quality oil that does a great job cleaning. That is the route I would take if it were my car we were talking about.
https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/blends-conventional-oils/conventional.html


PYB has been claimed to do some cleaning, there's never been any evidence presented that it actually does. JAG's testing has shown that the 0w-40's as well as AMSOIL SSO do actually do some cleaning, which is some of the only evidence we have at this point. I'm not sure as to the genesis of the PYB cleaning mythos, but it gets a surprising amount of repetition, so please don't feel I'm singling you out, there are many others who have made the same claim. You likely read it in one of those posts.

 

[JAG]

A light bulb went off in my head, brought on by what the OP said above. Once the easily dislodged particles are removed from the engine, as has been occurring, the remaining ones will be more difficult for the oil to put into suspension. I think that is a good time to start using oils that are more aggressive about cleaning. When at that point, I speak from experience when I say that even excellent oils like M1 0W-40 are not going to be able to keep getting it cleaner and cleaner over time. I’d consider oils like that to be Stage 2 of the process. Maybe Valvoline Premium Blue Restore should be Stage 3, used after several OCIs of M1 0W-40, Castrol 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series. There is also the Kreen approach that you could take instead.

 

[VeryNoisyPoet]

Originally Posted By: JAG
A light bulb went off in my head, brought on by what the OP said above. Once the easily dislodged particles are removed from the engine, as has been occurring, the remaining ones will be more difficult for the oil to put into suspension. I think that is a good time to start using oils that are more aggressive about cleaning. At that point, I speak from experience when I say that even excellent oils like M1 0W-40 are not going to be able to keep getting it cleaner and cleaner over time. I’d consider oils like that to be Stage 2 of the process. Maybe Valvoline Premium Blue Restore should be Stage 3, used after several OCIs of M1 0W-40, Castrol 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series.


This makes sense. Right now we're at Stage 1 getting the major loose stuff out with cheap oil and short intervals. Stage 2 is better oil for longer intervals to further dissolve the tougher deposits. Stage 3 is more aggressive cleaning oil for ??? intervals for yet tougher deposits. Taking samples here and there to see if actual progress in terms of reducing wear metals is happening and to make sure the filter is handling the insolubles.

 

[JAG]

Exactly. During Stage 3, I’d keep an eye out on how black the oil is to help decide how long the OCIs should be. Let it get really dark if you have expensive oil/cocktail in there to get your money’s worth. By that point, you should be getting good at knowing when to change the oil based on your experience and prior UOAs.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I'd probably just use SuperTech 10w40 this summer, with a half-pint of Gumout MultiSystem TuneUp or Kreen added, and change in 2,000 miles.

Why the bump in viscosity? To compensate for the cleaning additive thinning the oil?


Thinning concerns, yes, you're right. Using 10w40 SuperTech (instead of 10w30) was just because the half-pint of Kreen or Gumout MultiSystem will thin out the visc a bit, and it is summer.


Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Owners manual suggests 10w-30 or 5w-40 when temps will be over 86F, with 10w-30 synthetic preferred for extreme use or temperatures.


The Owner's Manual recommendations are old and obsolete if you're using synthetic or semi-synthetic oils especially.
Volvo was worried about the old SJ oils shearing during hot and high-speed driving, and also poor flow at low temperatures.
I read the 2004 (SJ-era) Volvo XC70 Owner's Manual ( https://volvo.custhelp.com/app/manuals/OwnersManual/om_id/626 ), and if you're using a 0w30 or 5w30 dexos1 oil, you've exceeeded even modern SN GF-5 levels of protection, which Volvo didn't have back then.
Your Valv MaxLife full syn is dexos1, rare in a High Mileage style oil, so you picked a good one. I would have chosen it too. Conditions old seals and meets dexos1.


The vintage Volvo owner's manual excerpt:

Oil quality
Engine oil must meet the minimum ILSAC specification GF-2, including ACEA A1, API SJ, SJ/CF and SJ/Energy Conserving.

Your Volvo has been certified to standards using ILSAC oil specification GF-2 5W-30. Volvo recommends use of oil with a quality rating equal to or higher than ILSAC GF-2. Equivalent and better oils include ACEA A1, API SJ, SJ/CF, and SJ/Energy conserving. Lower quality oils may not offer the same fuel economy, engine performance, or engine protection.

Volvo Cars recommends Castrol.

Depending on your driving habits, premium or synthetic oils may provide superior fuel economy and engine protection. Consult your Volvo retailer for recommendations on premium or synthetic oils.

Oil additives must not be used.


NOTE: Synthetic oil is not used when the oil is changed at the normal maintenance services. This oil is only used at customer request, at additional charge. Please consult your Volvo retailer.

Oil viscosity (stable ambient temperatures)

Oil viscosity (stable ambient temperatures)
Operation in temperate climates
Incorrect viscosity oil can shorten engine life. Under normal use when temperatures do not exceed 86 °F (30°C), SAE 5W/30 will provide good fuel economy and engine protection. See the viscosity chart below.

Operation in hot climates
When temperatures exceed 86 °F (30°C) in your area, Volvo recommends, for the protection of your engine, that you use a heavier weight oil, such as SAE 10W/30. See the viscosity chart below.

Extreme engine operation
Synthetic oils meeting SAE 10W/30 and complying with oil quality requirements are recommended for driving in areas of sustained temperature extremes (hot or cold), when towing a trailer over long distances, and for prolonged driving in mountainous areas.

Changing oil and oil filter
Oil and oil filter changes should be made at 7,500 mile (12,000 km) intervals.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Originally Posted By: JAG
Wow, that engine has a lot of deposits. Looks like a good candidate to try the Valvoline Premium Blue Restore oil in. If not that, then some Castrol 0W-40, M1 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series.


Part of me wants to try a more aggressive cleaning oil. Part of me doesn't want to knock loose the crud too quickly and clog the oil pickup.

There's also the concern about cost. If standard M1 10w-30 picked up enough crud to turn essentially black in 3k with insolubles starting to get high, what happens to an oil with even more cleaning action? Would running more expensive synthetic oil for longer intervals give similar cleaning to many short runs with cheap conventional as others have suggested? Run short intervals with expensive oil to try cleaning things out faster? My parents are willing to spend some money but I don't think I could sell them on running expensive oil only to drain it after a couple thousand miles because it got super dirty.


PYB is a pretty inexpensive but quality oil that does a great job cleaning. That is the route I would take if it were my car we were talking about.
https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/blends-conventional-oils/conventional.html


PYB has been claimed to do some cleaning, there's never been any evidence presented that it actually does. JAG's testing has shown that the 0w-40's as well as AMSOIL SSO do actually do some cleaning, which is some of the only evidence we have at this point. I'm not sure as to the genesis of the PYB cleaning mythos, but it gets a surprising amount of repetition, so please don't feel I'm singling you out, there are many others who have made the same claim. You likely read it in one of those posts.


I'd like to see that. How many different brands of oils were tested?

As far as cleaning goes, you're right, I just believed those companies that touted their oils to clean and to keep things clean are correct.
Figured if that wasn't the case, then lawsuits/false advertising claims would be rampant?

On here, however, I have seen some very clean looking engines using Pennzoil oils and others, so that is another reason why I recommended it and believed their claims.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet

Wow, that engine has a lot of deposits. Looks like a good candidate to try the Valvoline Premium Blue Restore oil in. If not that, then some Castrol 0W-40, M1 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series.


Part of me wants to try a more aggressive cleaning oil. Part of me doesn't want to knock loose the crud too quickly and clog the oil pickup.

There's also the concern about cost. If standard M1 10w-30 picked up enough crud to turn essentially black in 3k with insolubles starting to get high, what happens to an oil with even more cleaning action? Would running more expensive synthetic oil for longer intervals give similar cleaning to many short runs with cheap conventional as others have suggested? Run short intervals with expensive oil to try cleaning things out faster? My parents are willing to spend some money but I don't think I could sell them on running expensive oil only to drain it after a couple thousand miles because it got super dirty.



PYB has been claimed to do some cleaning, there's never been any evidence presented that it actually does. JAG's testing has shown that the 0w-40's as well as AMSOIL SSO do actually do some cleaning, which is some of the only evidence we have at this point. I'm not sure as to the genesis of the PYB cleaning mythos, but it gets a surprising amount of repetition, so please don't feel I'm singling you out, there are many others who have made the same claim. You likely read it in one of those posts.


I'd like to see that. How many different brands of oils were tested?

As far as cleaning goes, you're right, I just believed those companies that touted their oils to clean and to keep things clean are correct.
Figured if that wasn't the case, then lawsuits/false advertising claims would be rampant?

On here, however, I have seen some very clean looking engines using Pennzoil oils and others, so that is another reason why I recommended it and believed their claims.


Fair enough ~ What oil it needs is clean oil … and short OCl’s for a while … and if folks can bear with “appearances” … some paper towel blots (with photos, same paper roll) … UOA’s can wait …

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Wow, that engine has a lot of deposits. Looks like a good candidate to try the Valvoline Premium Blue Restore oil in. If not that, then some Castrol 0W-40, M1 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series.

Cool, I hadn't heard of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore. Its the only oil I've ever seen that specifically goes after gunked-up ring deposits. Pennzoil Ultra is one that was advertised as having the cleanest piston deposits as you go, but this Valvoline Premium Blue Restore cleans up a mess already there.

From another thread, indicating the level of testing and engineering that is behind Premium Blue Restore:
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
If Cummins and Valvoline hadn't tested this to work at cleaning ring packs, this oil wouldn't exist.


It does have a lot of ester (POE) in it, which does give it great solvency properties (MSDS):

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: irv

I'd like to see that. How many different brands of oils were tested?


He's tested three so far. Thread can be found HERE

Originally Posted By: irv
As far as cleaning goes, you're right, I just believed those companies that touted their oils to clean and to keep things clean are correct.
Figured if that wasn't the case, then lawsuits/false advertising claims would be rampant?

On here, however, I have seen some very clean looking engines using Pennzoil oils and others, so that is another reason why I recommended it and believed their claims.


Fair enough. All modern oils contain detergents and dispersants and all the major oil companies make some sort of claim regarding not only their ability to keep engines clean but "remove sludge other oils leave behind", which, as the OP is experiencing is primarily due to neglect and perhaps improper lubricant selection rather than a brand issue.

Originally Posted By: Castrol
Castrol GTX Double Action formula cleans away old sludge*, while protecting against new sludge formation, better than tough industry standards.

Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
This helps keep engines clean and responsive. In fact, Pennzoil® motor oil helps clean out sludge lesser oils leave behind and keeps cleaning all the way to the next oil change.

Originally Posted By: Mobil
Mobil 1 keeps engines running like new by providing superior protection against sludge and deposit formation. Mobil 1 can clean up virtually all sludge in just one oil change.

Originally Posted By: Valvoline
Advanced cleaning additives remove deposits and sludge from the engine. Through active deposit control new buildup of harmful deposits is prevented.


There's never been anything presented on here that Pennzoil, particularly their conventional oil, was/is any better at cleaning than any other comparable oil in the same grade with the same approvals. It's mostly BITOG lore that got traction and started getting repeated frequently.

You also have to remember that the additive company Pennzoil (SOPUS) uses is the same one Mobil (XOM) uses. The co-own infinium. So the odds of a product from one side having some uber-secret magic cleaning agent that isn't available to the other is basically nil.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is 10w30, and expensive, but maybe worth it (?)
https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/valvoline-877377/premium-blue-restore-10w30-gallon-p-vvl-877377

 

[JLTD]

Originally Posted By: JAG
A light bulb went off in my head, brought on by what the OP said above. Once the easily dislodged particles are removed from the engine, as has been occurring, the remaining ones will be more difficult for the oil to put into suspension. I think that is a good time to start using oils that are more aggressive about cleaning. When at that point, I speak from experience when I say that even excellent oils like M1 0W-40 are not going to be able to keep getting it cleaner and cleaner over time. I’d consider oils like that to be Stage 2 of the process. Maybe Valvoline Premium Blue Restore should be Stage 3, used after several OCIs of M1 0W-40, Castrol 0W-40, or Amsoil Signature Series. There is also the Kreen approach that you could take instead.


You mentioned Amsoil....they do make a very good engine flush/cleaning product. Although I haven't used it myself, there have been numerous positive posts about it on here. (Will try to find)

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I'm not buying that Pennzoil Yellow PYB conventional is any better at cleaning than SuperTech. Its kind of an often repeated meme without real proof of any kind.
For example, PYB 10w-30 has 2279 ppm calcium, which is very typical. SuperTech 5w30 conventional has 2289 ppm, about the same. So take your pick.


As much as I like Pennzoil products, this entire statement is bunk. JAG's post about the Valvoline Blue Restore (and the associated Cummins PPT file I found and linked in that thread), along with SonOfJoe's comments on the "cleaning" topic essentially prove that neither calcium nor magnesium have any measurable effect on "cleaning" adhered deposits. It simply doesn't happen from detergents (which do not work like Tide in an engine), it happens by a much more polar oil displacing a less polar deposit.

Other than the documented Valvoline Blue Restore or an actual solvent being mixed with engine oil, all I have ever mentioned or will believe is that any "cleaning" that occurs is simply a flushing effect based on the fact that the new oil is less saturated with junk than the oil it's replacing. Repeat several times at intervals shorter than the saturation point of the "new" oil, and eventually your engine looks better than it did. I'd consider it sludge "erosion" more than cleaning.

 

[Lolvoguy]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is 10w30, and expensive, but maybe worth it (?)
https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/valvoline-877377/premium-blue-restore-10w30-gallon-p-vvl-877377

$71 USD for a jug of oil?!?!

 

[VeryNoisyPoet]

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is 10w30, and expensive, but maybe worth it (?)
https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/valvoline-877377/premium-blue-restore-10w30-gallon-p-vvl-877377

$71 USD for a jug of oil?!?!


For that price it better be liquid magic and I expect the bottle to come personally signed by the archmage who brewed it.

Diesel engines can take like 15 gallons of oil, so with the manufacturer's support, I guess it's cheaper to pay a thousand bucks for an oil change instead of an engine teardown and rebuild to achieve the same effect.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Certainly cheaper to add Kreen or Gumout MultiSystem to some 10w40 conventional, but Valvoline Premium Blue Restore does have solvents that are pretty powerful for rings.