02 Accord 4 speed AT RLI ATF 3131 OCI 90122 on car

[benjamming]

Code:
ATF used RLI ATF AMSOIL ATF AMSOIL ATF AMSOIL ATF AMSOIL ATF Honda ATF Z1

Sample Date 12/Jul-2008 5-Mar-2008 17-Jan-2008 29-Nov-2007 Jan-19-2007 Jan-28-2006

Miles on oil 3,131 2,990 3,010 2,974 15,003 12,836

Miles on car 90,122 84,003 81,013 78,003 60,011 45,008

Make-up oil None None None None None None

Lab: Blackstone Blackstone Blackstone Blackstone Blackstone Blackstone



Wear Metals:

Iron: 16 27 40 54 70 60

Copper: 5 4 6 8 8 7

Tin: 0 0 0 0 0 1

Lead: 1 1 1 2 3 2

Chromium: 0 0 0 1 1 1

Nickel: 0 0 0 0 0 0

Aluminum: 23 47 66 82 74 36

Titanium: 0 0 0 0 0 0

Silver: 0 0 0 0 0 0



Additive Metals:

Calcium: 207 126 152 205 323 388

Magnesium: 7 18 27 44 136 258

Zinc: 15 33 49 82 206 356

Phosphorus: 436 470 443 374 176 2

Barium: 0 0 0 1 1 2

Molybdenum: 0 0 0 0 1 1

Antimony: NT NT NT NT NT NT



Contaminant Metals:

Silicon: 6 9 12 15 14 10

Sodium: 8 11 14 11 7 4

Boron: 149 191 155 140 209 243

Potassium: 0 1 0 0 0 0

Vanadium: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Manganese: 0 0 1 0 1 1



Physical & Other Tests:

Viscosity 40C: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Viscosity 100C: 6.54 6.07 6.38 6.13 45.8 44.3

TAN: 2.3 3.1 2.2 1.7 0.9 0.5

Flashpoint: 400 430 405 410 365 340

Oxidation: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Nitration: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Water: 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Fuel: NT NT NT NT NT NT

TBN: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Insolubles: 0.0 TR 0.1 0.1 Trace 0

Glycol: NT NT NT NT NT NT

VI: NT NT NT NT NT NT

Sulfate: NT NT NT NT NT NT


This latest result is with 39% RLI ATF and the balance is AMSOIL ATF (actually there is theoretically 2% Z1 left). I drained & refilled with another 3 qt of RLI ATF. It will be drained & sampled in another 3k miles. Note that ARX was added at 76,967 miles.

 

[Tempest]

So far so good and impressive. Things had been trending down so it's hard to say that the RLI is responsible but it sure didn't hurt.

I wish they would have tested for Antimony as RLI is known to use it.

 

[MolaKule]

IMHO, There should be no Sb or moly in any ATF. Even the Zinc levels in most ATF's should not be above above 10 ppm, except for Z1's zinc level, which is the exception.

Also, I believe that Blackstone's phosphorous levels are about 100 ppm too high, and their Calcium levels are about 50 ppm too high.

While RLI ATF is an excellent AT fluid and this is a good trending UOA, I think I would use Honda's Z1 because of their weird additive package. But then again, you're probably out of warranty.

Looking forward to another RLI ATF UOA from this tranny.

 

[benjamming]

I should also add for the sake of completeness that there were also AMSOIL ATF drain & refills at 86,991 and 75,011 miles.

Mola,
Why should there not be any antimony or moly in ATF?
Go back to Z1 even over AMSOIL? I wasn't expecting that comment. Is that simply due to traceability concerns if an "event" happens during the warranty period?

 

[DmanWho]

Is this the very 1st and only RLI ATF analysis on the board..?

Thank You!

Looks like everything is heading in the right direction. Why the successive tranny drain and fills?

 

[benjamming]

Well, everything was headed in the right direction prior to change to RLI. However, it's good to see that it hasn't started going in the wrong direction, or at least per UOA.

One reason was to get a higher % pure fluid but w/o a flush. Another reason is that the UOAs were looking pretty crummy so I was trying to flush the crud out. The last & least important is that the tranny has a very weak design. It is the least important reason b/c the design flaws are not really fluid related.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:

Mola,
Why should there not be any antimony or moly in ATF?
Go back to Z1 even over AMSOIL? I wasn't expecting that comment.


It was found that metallic additives tended to incorporate metallic solids in the porous clutch material and change the dynamic friction coefficients, which is why most AT fluids have (except for Honda, because of their tranny component make-up)shyed away from metallic components in additives. And moly, zinc, and antimony would compete with the organic friction modifiers in the oil. The low-level S-P additive package, combined with the boron, is all that is needed for anti-wear.

Quote:
Is that simply due to traceability concerns if an "event" happens during the warranty period?


Yes.