illegal oil "requirements" from dealerships?

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Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Amsoil PCO 15W40 is API Certified CI-4+. Schaeffer is no longer API Certified. See http://eolcs.api.org/

The fact that Schaeffer claims to "...meet or exceed..." API requirements does not make it API Certified and could lead to warranty claims being denied if such claims were lubrication related.

Any manufacturer has the right to require motor oil meet certain specifications. If you use non-manufacturer branded motor oil that meets those specifications, and change the oil at manufacturer recommended intervals, they cannot legally deny a warranty claim based on improper lubricant or OCI. OTOH, if you use a lubricant that does not meet the manufacturer's specification, you are taking a chance.


I stand corrected on Scheaffer being API certified, it has the donut but no starburst. That said, certified or not, they do "meet or exceed" api specs. So, if your owners manual reads like NavyDood's 04 dodge above then does that not keep you in the clear?
 
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.


Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+


Actually, at this time, Schaeffer's has NO API certifications( listed on API directory site ). I know in the past the 7000 series was API certified but it does not appear to be now. On Schaeffers site they do not claim API SM certification at this time. Just comments that it meets or exceeds now. I know in the past they claimed full certification for it and I had seen it on the API directory site. The product photo shows the Starburst still but it does not appear that it is certified any longer?



Here it is off Schaeffer's site : http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/TD Sheets/700.pdf

The bold lettering at the top of the page is enough for me, not to mention the label on the back of the bottle. I can't speak for the API site, but I doubt Schaeffers would put it in the tech data and on the bottle without it being fact.


I already looked at the info sheet for the 7000 series oil. IT does not say it IS certified. It only says meets. Big difference.

What matters is if it is enough for the dealer/car mfg not what you think if a warranty issue arises. If the owner's manual says use an API certified oil and gives you what service level and/or shows the Starburst or donut then that is what you need to use. Schaeffer's saying they meet API SM does not cut it.

At one point the 7000 series actually was API certified but it no longer appears to be. No Starburst( would require API SN now )and no API donut either. NO current API Cert listed for them on the API license site for any of their oils( link given above ).

Schaeffer's makes excellent oils but if they no longer offer API certification I would not use it in a new vehicle under warranty. If you had some old stock that still carried the Starburst( like the product photo on their site )or some newer stuff with a API donut( where did you see that or is it on what you have? )you could use it. If there is no API certification symbol on the bottle I would not.
 
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Yes, all products must MEET manufacturers specifications if you don't expect to have issues with warranties being denied.

Bottom line if a product doesn't meet a car manufacturers specifications as written in your owners manual you are asking for expensive trouble. Choose products that MEET specifications and are certified to meet those specs.


Is it really worth using Shaeffers oil and risk an expensive warranty denial? Plenty of other products out there that have the proper specs. Use one of them.
 
The API spec is your trump card as far as DIY oil changes. I am just using WPP house brand oil that meets spec and changing at 5K miles.... The cars have no gripes, and the manufacturer never questioned me on vehicle issues... then again.. there were no engine lube issues. Usually, any oil that meets the API spec will also have a statement about vehicle warranties being in tact when this product is used. Federated oil filters say that right on them too... "New car warranty is valid when BRAND filter is used." the Oil I have says something like that on the bottle too. Vehicle's warranty is valid when using this product in a vehicle specified for 5w-20 SN or SM... It's something like that printed on the bottle.
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

Schaeffer's makes excellent oils but if they no longer offer API certification I would not use it in a new vehicle under warranty. If you had some old stock that still carried the Starburst( like the product photo on their site )or some newer stuff with a API donut( where did you see that or is it on what you have? )you could use it. If there is no API certification symbol on the bottle I would not.


The donut I saw was on a bottle of supreme 7000 10w-30 that was ordered about 3 months ago, it is SM rated, but there is no starburst, I also have some SN rated 5w-30 that is about a month old, also no starburst, but the donut is there. So what does this mean warranty-wise if the owners manual says it must "meet" API SM?
 
Actually the starburst is the energy conserving specification..

I believe that the doughnut usually found on the rear of a bottle with API cert is what is most important as afar as a manufacturer honoring a warranty.
 
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Actually the starburst is the energy conserving specification..

I believe that the doughnut usually found on the rear of a bottle with API cert is what is most important as afar as a manufacturer honoring a warranty.

Correct. Look at (most) of the high mileage oils. They usually have the doughnut (API cert) but no starburst (too thick to meet EC/RC specs).
 
So I have the donut on the back label saying that it's an SN oil, why is it not listed on the API site? As I said it's a brand new bottle, not some old stock that was laying around. What is the catch here?
 
I don't know what to tell you ramechanic4? If the bottle has the API Donut or Starburst symbol it will meet your warranty requiremments as long as the manual calls for whatever symbol is on your oil and it is of the correct service level or higher. I just don't get how it can have either though when there is no license listed on the API site for ANY oil from Schaeffer, Schaeffer Oil, or Schaeffer Manufacturing Company? You can not find anything for Schaeffer anywhere on the site. Their own product literature does not say "certified" either but rather they use "meets".

I am just guessing here but perhaps even though the oil was purchased just a few months ago it actually is old stock contrary to what you feel. It could be from when they had a valid/current license? Perhaps it has expired? I know the 7000 series used to be certified(SM service level )and carry the Starburst. Once SN arrived SM oils couldn't carry the Starburst any longer so an SM certified oil would only be able to display the donut. You may have a bottle of oil that falls into the time frame of the oil being certified but SN was out so only the donut can be used. You have said SM right along but in your last post you said the donut says SN? If it is SN maybe they reformulated and just recently got certified to SN and the API site hasn't caught up yet?

The product literature on their site right now makes no mention of having any actual certifications however and oil mfg's always promote that. Again they use the industry standard marketing claims of "meets" for non certified oils. They list SM as well not SN. How about taking a photo of that API Donut symbol for us. I know of at least one other oil mfg who made up a lookalike API symbol to try and fool people into thinking it was certified when it really wasn't. They used the same shape and overall appearance but altered the text to basically say meets. Maybe Schaeffer's is trying that?

Just don't know what to say. How about you contact Schaeffer's and just ask them if they have any current API Certifications on their 15W-40 7000 series.
 
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I'd definitely put more trust in that API list than what the manufacturer has on the bottle of course.

I personally would not use that oil in a vehicle with a new car warranty!

Unless it is listed as certified by API it is a NO GO!
 
I admit that on my Mazda I take it in for service partially because I don't want to deal with a warranty debate in case something goes wrong. I still do the work on the Dodge though. I buy my oil by the case and usually a couple of filters at a time. To document the oil and filter to the car and the milage or in this case the 4 month required changes seems to be a problem that at this point isn't worth it. I have more of a problem with having to change the oil in 4 months when I might only have 2000 miles on it.
 
When I bought the Tiburon I used to have back in 2003 the guy at the dealer told me I had to use their oil and filter or it would void the warranty. I then informed him that he needed to put in my purchase contract that the dealer was to supply ALL oil and ALL filters, FREE OF CHARGE for the life of the vehicle.

After that comment a nice little argument started. I then mentioned Magnuson-Moss and a lawyer if they tried to pull any [censored].

In the end the general manager was the guy that did all my paperwork.
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

How about you contact Schaeffer's and just ask them if they have any current API Certifications on their 15W-40 7000 series.


Agreed. I find it odd that Schaeffer's doesnt have API cert, but berhaps they are between certifications or something else...

Regardless, the best thing to do is to contact them and get a copy of the API cert if the oil has it. This way there is no question.

If there is no API cert, or you cant get good documentation, remember that lawyers are thieves who don't really care if the right thing gets done, just that they make the process so expensive and cumbersome that the opposing party is unwilling to pay/spend the effort to get something done...

My point being that if there is a question, and if the engine has an issue, it is far easier to turn it all into a legal bleeding contest if there are questions about the lube meeting the required specs. So Id find a lube that meets the required specs.

Better yet, buy the filters from the dealer, or a dealer, so you have Ford receipts, plus the oil purchase receipts. UOAs give even better proof that you were on top of things...
 
The API symbol is not the word of god. Some companies just choose not to spend the retarded amounts of money to get their oils API certified and they will perform equal to or greater than the coveted API standards.

This is verbatim from my owner's manual for our 2010 Camaro 2SS.

"The engine requires a special engine oil meeting GM Standard GM4718M. Oils meeting this standard can be identified with the American Petroleum Institute (API) Certified for Gasoline Engines starburst symbol. However, not all synthetic API oils with the starburst symbol will meet this GM standard. Look for and use only an oil that meets GM Standard GM4718M."
 
Schaeffers Certificate number EOLCS 0032 dated 6/21/10 good till 6/21/11 states that the Schaeffers 700 is CH-4 CI-4 CJ-4. This oil has always been API compliant and I have absolutely no doubt that is is currently.
 
Another note, do not expect the Feds to sue on your behalf for a one off violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act. Most dealerships will laugh you out of the place if you throw that around and expect them to act.
 
You really wouldn't have to resort to a lawsuit. Simply take your business to an honest dealership to get any warranty work done.
 
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Schaeffers Certificate number EOLCS 0032 dated 6/21/10 good till 6/21/11 states that the Schaeffers 700 is CH-4 CI-4 CJ-4. This oil has always been API compliant and I have absolutely no doubt that is is currently.


I can't find that number in the API EOLCS database, nor can I find anything Schaeffer's.
 
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Schaeffers Certificate number EOLCS 0032 dated 6/21/10 good till 6/21/11 states that the Schaeffers 700 is CH-4 CI-4 CJ-4. This oil has always been API compliant and I have absolutely no doubt that is is currently.


Sorry "salesrep"

But "your belief" doesn't equal documented proof that that oil is API certified. If it isn't on the list over at API, IT ISN'T certified!

The bottom line is make sure if you want your new car warranty to be honored make sure the products you use MEET the specifications required by the manufacturer and are CERTIFIED to meet those specs.

The API certification is basically "the word" that would be used to determine if an oil meet the specs of the manufacturer , not salesrep.
grin.gif
 
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