Crazy claim I heard the other day regarding K&N

[ltslimjim]

I overheard a mechanic the other day say that some Honda's that he has driven have intermittent problems when using a K&N oil filter, that is affects VTEC somehow.

Anyone heard of that or even experience such? I haven't tried K&N oil filters, yet, but I couldn't see how this would happen. "Perhaps" if K&N flows in a certain way that it somehow affects the oil pressure from allowing VTEC to engage at certain times during operation(perhaps initial startup and flooring it WOT for VTEC)???

 

[getnpsi]

kn oil coming off the filter used to mess up toyota trucks maf, I don't know if that is something the hondas experience when it starts sucking in more air. An innaccurate maf signal will cause everything down the line to have issues, and if you dont code it can be harder to track down.

 

[mopar_monkey]

yes it does happen, i'm a honda tech and have seen if before, not with a k&n in particular but what happens is some filters allow a drop in oil pressure, hondas vtec system is very sensitive to this and can cause driveblity issues by not allowing the vtec to engage fully.

 

[Radman]

Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
yes it does happen, i'm a honda tech and have seen if before, not with a k&n in particular but what happens is some filters allow a drop in oil pressure, hondas vtec system is very sensitive to this and can cause driveblity issues by not allowing the vtec to engage fully.

I am curious as to which filters have enough dp to cause the vtec anomolies?

 

[hounddog]

Amsoil issued a tech bulletin and which one of their filters not to use. Think is after several thousands of miles and filter media is somewhat plugged up. I think its their EA oil filters. Extended life ones.

 

[Warstud]

Oohhh....I was hoping it was someone that claimed they gained 100 HP after installing a K&N.

 

[mopar_monkey]

Originally Posted By: Radman
Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
yes it does happen, i'm a honda tech and have seen if before, not with a k&n in particular but what happens is some filters allow a drop in oil pressure, hondas vtec system is very sensitive to this and can cause driveblity issues by not allowing the vtec to engage fully.

I am curious as to which filters have enough dp to cause the vtec anomolies?


i have seen a fram and a stp cause these issues. that being said i don't think it is all filters made by those companys, most likely a fluke issue, but i could see k&n filters being more susceptible to this issue since they are a high flow filter.

 

[cronk]

Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
Originally Posted By: Radman
Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
yes it does happen, i'm a honda tech and have seen if before, not with a k&n in particular but what happens is some filters allow a drop in oil pressure, hondas vtec system is very sensitive to this and can cause driveblity issues by not allowing the vtec to engage fully.

I am curious as to which filters have enough dp to cause the vtec anomolies?


i have seen a fram and a stp cause these issues.


Since oem honda filters are made by Fram, I don't know how that would be possible. Unless the bypass valve is set to different specs.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: getnpsi
kn oil coming off the filter used to mess up toyota trucks maf, I don't know if that is something the hondas experience when it starts sucking in more air.


OP was talking about OIL filters ... not air filters.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
i have seen a fram and a stp cause these issues. that being said i don't think it is all filters made by those companys, most likely a fluke issue, but i could see k&n filters being more susceptible to this issue since they are a high flow filter.


I would think a "high flow filter" would help the VTEC system. Oil starvation should cause the problem, not good solid oil flow.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I overheard a mechanic the other day say that some Honda's that he has driven have intermittent problems when using a K&N oil filter, that is affects VTEC somehow.


More likely due to "intermittent" problems not related to the oil filter.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: getnpsi
kn oil coming off the filter used to mess up toyota trucks maf, I don't know if that is something the hondas experience when it starts sucking in more air.


OP was talking about OIL filters ... not air filters.

Yeah, I was going to mention that if your oil filter is causing issues with your MAF sensor, you may have some other things to worry about--like seeking shelter

 

[toyotapriusguy]

Originally Posted By: getnpsi
kn oil coming off the filter used to mess up toyota trucks maf, I don't know if that is something the hondas experience when it starts sucking in more air. An innaccurate maf signal will cause everything down the line to have issues, and if you dont code it can be harder to track down.


OIL filter, Not AIR filter

 

[mopar_monkey]

they are made by honeywell but to honda specs, they have silicone antidrain back valve which the fram flavor does not, and the bypass valve is different, oring is different case is thicker so the honda filter is by no means the same.

 

[mopar_monkey]

it was just a thought, possibly since it is higher flow it may not build quiet as much pressure. but only a theory on my part, since it isn't a starvation issue but a pressure issue. but trust me it doesn't take much to cause an issue even running a thicker weight oil can cause a problem, depending on year and model.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
it was just a thought, possibly since it is higher flow it may not build quiet as much pressure. but only a theory on my part, since it isn't a starvation issue but a pressure issue. but trust me it doesn't take much to cause an issue even running a thicker weight oil can cause a problem, depending on year and model.


The oil pressure you see at the inlet to an engine's oiling system is due to the flow resistance of the engine's oiling system. If you had an accurate oil pressure sensor located between the oil filter and engine, you would see the same exact oil pressure with or without an oil filter installed, as long as the oil pump was not in pressure relief mode. That is because an oil pump is a positive displacement pump. As long as its pressure relief valve is close, all oil leaving the pump goes through the filter and engine circuit. The pressure reading you see at the engine's inlet is strictly a function of the engine's fixed flow resistance, the oil viscosity and the oil volume being forced through the engine by the oil pump.

An oil filter typically contributes only about 1/15th the total pressure drop between the outlet of the oil pump and the sump.

 

[mopar_monkey]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
it was just a thought, possibly since it is higher flow it may not build quiet as much pressure. but only a theory on my part, since it isn't a starvation issue but a pressure issue. but trust me it doesn't take much to cause an issue even running a thicker weight oil can cause a problem, depending on year and model.


The oil pressure you see at the inlet to an engine's oiling system is due to the flow resistance of the engine's oiling system. If you had an accurate oil pressure sensor located between the oil filter and engine, you would see the same exact oil pressure with or without an oil filter installed, as long as the oil pump was not in pressure relief mode. That is because an oil pump is a positive displacement pump. As long as its pressure relief valve is close, all oil leaving the pump goes through the filter and engine circuit. The pressure reading you see at the engine's inlet is strictly a function of the engine's fixed flow resistance, the oil viscosity and the oil volume being forced through the engine by the oil pump.

An oil filter typically contributes only about 1/15th the total pressure drop between the outlet of the oil pump and the sump.


ok, i'm not getting into the science of it, the 2 hondas i have seen this issue with had a code for vtec oil pressure switch failure (which is the code set when oil pressure is to low to activate the secondary rocker arms for the vtec system), running through the diag process found no faults electrically or mechanically, in both case the issue continued until i changed the oil filter, so obviously the oil filter can have influence over oil pressure. i understand what you are saying, i'm not by any means claiming that k&n filters will cause this issue since i haven't seen one do so, but the k&n filter does have very different flow characteristics then the factory filter and in a system so sensitive to flow/pressure i can see the potential for issues.

 

[ltslimjim]

When this little Civic was first taken in from the harsh world(lol), I had to clear 3 stored codes: One was for the VSS, and another was the infamous LAF sensor. .

The 3rd was for the VTEC oil pressure switch.

This code hasn't come up with me driving, and that's been with a Napa Gold 1334(2-3 times), a Wix 51334, a P1 PL14459(with a 'thin' 40), and currently an Amsoil EaO20. I'd really be curious to see if another user out there has had this issue with a Honda and I may have to read around on some Civic forums etc.

As the master tech mentioned, it could be year/model dependent. Multi-stage VTEC?, etc. My little VX has probably one of the most basic VTEC-e designs, but it's a must as this car needs it or you find it drives like a Geo Metro.

Anyway, it's no surprise that this SAME shop had a mechanic warning me about using a 30 multi-grade oil in a Civic. It was 'way too thin', according to him and I should be running at least a 40(

. These guys are tuners and do so for street performance/racing, it kinda makes sense that their shop is of the opinion that K&N oil filters and Honda doesn't mix; at least a Honda with VTEC. I wonder if their 'deduction' is from running too thick of an oil in a modded Civic in combination with the K&N oil filter somehow? Ironically, they do back the use of K&N intakes/air filters.

Still not sure I buy the claim on the K&N oil filter being the culprit, and it almost makes me want to put one on for fun, just to see if my app likes it or not.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey

ok, i'm not getting into the science of it, the 2 hondas i have seen this issue with had a code for vtec oil pressure switch failure (which is the code set when oil pressure is to low to activate the secondary rocker arms for the vtec system), running through the diag process found no faults electrically or mechanically, in both case the issue continued until i changed the oil filter, so obviously the oil filter can have influence over oil pressure.


Couple of questions.
1) How old was the oil filter before the change? Maybe it was getting clogged up somewhat.
2) Where these codes set when the engine was near redline use?

If these instances happened while running the engine near redline, then it's possible the filter was decreasing the oil flow somewhat. Like I said earlier, the only time a filter's resistance can be seen by the engine is when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode (ie, at max oil pressure output). The most likely time for this to happen is when running at redline or at high RPM with cold oil. And if the filter is restrictive and/or clogged up, then the max oil pressure will be less as a result.

Also, is it possible the oil pumps on these two cars are getting worn and weak?

 

[mopar_monkey]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey

ok, i'm not getting into the science of it, the 2 hondas i have seen this issue with had a code for vtec oil pressure switch failure (which is the code set when oil pressure is to low to activate the secondary rocker arms for the vtec system), running through the diag process found no faults electrically or mechanically, in both case the issue continued until i changed the oil filter, so obviously the oil filter can have influence over oil pressure.


Couple of questions.
1) How old was the oil filter before the change? Maybe it was getting clogged up somewhat.
2) Where these codes set when the engine was near redline use?

If these instances happened while running the engine near redline, then it's possible the filter was decreasing the oil flow somewhat. Like I said earlier, the only time a filter's resistance can be seen by the engine is when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode (ie, at max oil pressure output). The most likely time for this to happen is when running at redline or at high RPM with cold oil. And if the filter is restrictive and/or clogged up, then the max oil pressure will be less as a result.

Also, is it possible the oil pumps on these two cars are getting worn and weak?

one was a civic si 06 or 07 with about 15k mi on it, i believe the freeze frame data showed around 4,500 rpms when light set, the other was an element with about 75k mi, this one was about 2 weeks ago, i could set the code everytime i drove it, it would spit and sputter at 3,250 rpms and set the code, neither were over due for an oil change.